Correspondance with a Young Theist

From time to time, I get comments on things I wrote and posted on the internet long ago. One of the most commented things I have ever posted is a (very teenager-like) rant against Christianity. As you can guess, I get a lot of very mixed feedback. I won't post the link here, mainly out of embarrassment that I wrote something which seems so infantile to me now (I wonder how I will look at these blog posts in a few years).

I would like to relate a bit of the ongoing conversation I have been having with a young (~16) theist, sparked by his initial comment on my rant. I don't want to post the entire conversation here (as it is quite long and many of his comments are hard to understand), so I will just try to concisely write the main points of the conversation in a more readable style, occasionally copying and pasting from the original conversation (as such, much of this conversation is not as it originally appeared. I have been as charitable as possible and the purpose of this is not to make fun of my fellow converser). Messages by me will be denoted with T and messages by my fellow converser will be denoted with K.

The Conversation

K: I'm sorry for the way that Christianity has presented itself to you. I'm sorry for all the bad that it's done. I'm sorry we have led people to believe Christianity is a religion, as it isn't - it is a relationship with God. God loves you. If there is anything I can do for you, please let me know.

T: There are two things you can do for me.
1. Do something good, like donate to Unicef or volunteer at a soup kitchen. But do it without thinking about your god. Don't do it to score points towards heaven. Do it because you want to do something good.
2. Imagine, for a second, that there is no god. Honestly reflect on this, and get back to me with your thoughts.

K: I can't do something good without doing it for my god. The reason I do good is because of God's love which I feel. When I felt it, I wanted to do good. If you felt it you would never want to do another injustice again. I'll get back to you with my thoughts based on your second request.

T: Strange that you claim that after feeling god's love you wouldn't want to do another injustice, as when it is put to the test, atheists are just as likely to help/ignore the needy as Christians (i.e. see the study by Curlin entitled "Do Religious Physicians Disproportionately Care for the Underserved?", published in Ann Fam Med 2007; 5: 353-360).

K: Many people call themselves Christians, but few will choose to follow Christianity as the life style. I thought about the possibility that my God doesn't exist and I'm assuming the big bang theory would be His replacement. If it happened that way then the earth would be completely consumed with evil, all of our choices would be evil, we couldn't know what good or perfect is, and that doesn't sound very nice.

T: How would the big bang be the replacement for your god? The big bang theory is basically a description of the rapid expansion of our universe within the first few moments of our its existence. It is also a very well supported theory, so if the big bang is mutually exclusive with your god for some reason, it seems much more justifiable to believe in the big bang.
Why would the world be consumed with evil if there was no god?

K: Sorry, I meant evolution, not the big bang theory. I do not believe in evolution. The world would be consumed with evil if there was no god because my god is every good and perfect thing, so without him there would be no good and all that would be left is evil.

T: I'm not sure I understand you when you say you don't believe in evolution - are you simply unaware of the evidence for evolution, or do you think there is some sort of giant scientist evolution conspiracy? Regardless, I suggest you read something by Ken Miller, he is both a theist and an evolutionary biologist so perhaps he will appeal to you.
Saying that your god is every good and perfect thing is quite vague and I quite frankly have no idea what it means. Is a cold drink on a hot day god? Is giving to charity god? Even if you believe that your god is every good and perfect thing in this universe, how do you know that in a universe without your god there would be no good?

K: "Every good and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights" (James 1:17). This is why I believe that every good thing comes from god.

T: The bible isn't exactly a book I think you should be accepting everything from uncritically - it endorses genocide and slavery. Are you sure that all of it is the true word of your god?

K: I've been wanting someone for awhile now to tell me where God ordains or asserts, in the Bible, humans owning other humans.

T: Well, it's pretty clear the author of Leviticus doesn't have a problem with slavery - the only problem with it if you beat your slave so hard that he/she dies within a day or two hours. If the slave dies after that it's okay:
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

K: True, slavery was condoned, but it wasn't a race issue, it could be anyone, and they had to consent to be sold. Did you see the next verses
26 If a man strikes the eye of his male or female servant, and destroys it, he shall let him go free for the sake of his eye. 27 And if he knocks out the tooth of his male or female servant, he shall let him go free for the sake of his tooth.

T: So it's fine if I beat my slave, but not if I break any teeth? Come on. You think that makes it better? The verse I quoted explicitly states that it is okay if you beat your slave because they are your property. I don't see how putting regulations on not breaking a couple of parts of the body makes this better.
Also, slavery was a race issue in the bible - foreigners were treated differently under the bible's slavery laws (see Leviticus 25:44-46 and Exodus 21:2-6 NLT). Also, since Canaan and all of his descendants were cursed to be slaves those of a particular ancestry are (for some strange reason that makes no sense to me) cursed to be slaves.
Back to my original point, the bible contains things that are false. If you don't accept that certain parts are wrong, you have to throw away much of modern science. All I am saying is, don't take everything from the bible uncritically, since there are obvious examples where it contains things that are less than true. This being the case, and interpretation being another issue, why do you assume that there would be no good if there was no god based entirely on your interpretation of a single passage?

K: I believe everything in the Bible true, and I know it is true. Whether or not you say I can't, I still know.
The creation story doesn't negate all of modern science, Christians believe God made certain things the way they are in the scientific realm, but you're right the creation story completely negates all of evolution.

T: How do you know everything in the bible is true?
Why are those of other religions, who also claim to just "know" their holy book is true, wrong?
Do you also believe the parts of the bible that contradict each other (to pick one example of many, was Jesus crucified the day before passover as in John 19:14-16, or the day after as in Mark 14:12, Mark 15:25?)?
If you believe the creation story to be true, you have to believe that the foundation of modern biology is wrong. If you believe there actually was a giant flood, you have to think that geologists' methods of doing just about anything are just completely wrong. If you think the world is only a few thousands of years old, you have to believe that chemistry, astronomy, and geology (once again) are all mistaken... In other words, you have to give up much of modern science.
I'm curious, though, how do you rationalize biology being so wrong about something they are so sure about? Do you think evolutionary theory is some sort of conspiracy, are biologists just fabricating all the evidence for it, or are biologists all just plain wrong?


That is it. If the conversation gets interesting again I may post another entry about it.

Reflection

I pursued this conversation in order to try to get a better understanding of this theist's perspective. Sometimes it's difficult to relate to someone with so radically different a world-view. I am impressed with the theist's willingness to engage and continue in a discussion, and I came to like him. I feel kind of bad for him, it seems like he has had some very uncritical role models.

The one thing that really stuck out in the conversation was when he claimed to just know that everything in the bible is true. Obviously, if this were a debate, that would be a pointless claim - it would be like announcing that you know you are right, and expecting that to be a valid point. However, this is not a debate. It is a conversation, and perhaps I should just take that announcement as him shutting down the discussion - he is basically saying that his belief in the bible needs no justification, so there is no point in me questioning it. I was just too curious to leave it at that, and I am eagerly waiting his reply to my last comment in which I try to explore this a little further.

I am interested to know how he will respond to the contradictions in the bible (I assume, since he has already claimed that everything in the bible is true, that he will try to claim they are not really contradictions). It will also be interesting to see how he responds to the fact that other people of other faiths believe just as firmly as he does in their holy books.